Should council members be CCs too?

I understand the frustration that this is being raised now, and I don’t want to dismiss the weeks of work that went into the RFC. My concern is less about the individuals and more about the concentration of roles and influence during the bootstrap phase.

I’ve seen similar dynamics play out in other protocols, where overlapping roles and incentives can gradually create a small circle that unintentionally reinforces itself. I don’t think anyone is acting in bad faith, but I do think some separation provides healthier checks and balances.

I also feel the response from some Council members has been more defensive than receptive to community feedback. I don’t think raising a structural concern should be seen as an attack on the people involved.

That said, I’ve made my position clear. I don’t want to prolong this discussion or risk delaying the CC nominations, so this will be my final comment on the matter. I genuinely appreciate the work the Council is doing and wish everyone the best moving forward.

I’ve given this some more thought and had a fairly detailed conversation with AI, testing a number of different scenarios and looking at what might work without unnecessarily restricting the current bootstrap process while the community is still relatively small.

The proposal below is where the robot and I landed.

@Okz, thanks for the invitation to formalise the idea. I’d be very happy to hear thoughts from anyone in the community, particularly around any weaknesses, edge cases, or reasons why this approach may or may not work in practice.

Proposal: Managing Council and Core Contributor Overlap

1. Purpose

I think there are reasonable arguments on both sides of the discussion around overlap between the Tari Council and Core Contributors.

In the long term, I would like to see meaningful separation between the two groups. Core Contributors elect the Council, so if most Council members are also Core Contributors there is a legitimate risk of circular influence developing.

At the same time, Tari is still in a bootstrap stage. The active community is relatively small, and many of the people with the time, commitment and experience to qualify as Core Contributors are also exactly the people likely to make capable Council members.

Trying to completely separate the groups today could therefore create a different problem. We might exclude qualified people simply to satisfy an ideal governance structure that the current size of the community cannot yet support.

I do not think the answer is to prohibit overlap. I think the better approach is to accept some overlap while the community is small, measure it openly, and progressively reduce the governance influence created by dual membership as the community becomes large enough to support greater separation.

2. Existing safeguards already point in this direction

There are already mechanisms in the current proposals that appear intended to reduce concentrated influence as the Core Contributor program develops.

During the bootstrap period, Council members are given voting rights over Core Contributor nominations. Once the eleventh Core Contributor has been inducted, the Council loses that special voting right and future Core Contributor nominations are decided by existing Core Contributors.

The Community Charter also establishes that Core Contributors elect Council members, requires a Council member who is also a Core Contributor to recuse from voting on their own Council seat, and states that no single interest should dominate the Council.

I think these are good indications that the existing governance design already recognises the need for decentralisation and separation of influence over time.

However, I think this could be strengthened.

The current eleven CC threshold removes the Council’s special voting authority, but it does not remove the influence of Council members who are themselves Core Contributors. Those people continue to participate in Core Contributor nominations in their capacity as CCs, and they also participate in Council elections.

That creates a potential circular relationship that becomes more important if there is substantial overlap between the two groups.

3. The issue is governance overlap, not simply membership overlap

I do not think somebody being both a Council member and a Core Contributor is inherently a problem.

Council members are expected to contribute materially to Tari, and many may quite reasonably satisfy the requirements of the Core Contributor program. Council service itself is explicitly described as an active working role rather than an honorary position.

The concern is instead what happens when substantially the same group can influence membership of both bodies.

There are two directions to consider.

First, Core Contributors elect the Council.

Second, Core Contributors decide who becomes a future Core Contributor.

If a large proportion of Core Contributors are also Council members, the same people can therefore participate in selecting future Council members and expanding the electorate that will select future Councils.

Nobody needs to be acting in bad faith for that structure to gradually become self reinforcing.

The aim should therefore be:

Allow useful membership overlap, while progressively reducing concentrated governance power created by that overlap.

4. Total Core Contributor numbers are not enough

The number of Core Contributors alone is not necessarily a good measure of governance maturity.

Consider this example.

There are seven Council members.

There are eleven Core Contributors.

All seven Council members are also Core Contributors.

In that situation, seven of the eleven people deciding future Core Contributor nominations are sitting Council members.

The same seven people also represent a substantial majority of the electorate that selects future Council members.

However, immediately removing those seven people’s Council election votes would create another problem.

Only four independent Core Contributors would then be responsible for electing a Council of as many as seven people.

That does not strike me as particularly decentralised either.

For this reason, I do not think additional restrictions should automatically begin when the eleventh CC is inducted.

A better measure is the size of the independent Core Contributor electorate, meaning Core Contributors who are not currently sitting Council members.

For example:

11 CCs with 7 Council members overlapping means 4 independent CCs.

20 CCs with 7 Council members overlapping means 13 independent CCs.

30 CCs with 5 Council members overlapping means 25 independent CCs.

These are very different governance environments.

5. Proposed governance stages

I suggest thinking about the development of the system in three broad stages.

Stage One: Bootstrap

During the initial bootstrap period, significant overlap should be accepted.

Council members may become Core Contributors if they independently satisfy the requirements.

Dual role members retain normal nomination and voting rights.

The existing bootstrap provisions remain in place.

The immediate goal is to establish a functioning and credible Core Contributor body without artificially excluding qualified people.

Stage Two: Growing independent participation

Once there is a sufficiently large number of Core Contributors outside the Council, additional safeguards should begin.

I would suggest measuring this using independent CCs rather than total CC membership.

For discussion, a threshold of around ten independent Core Contributors might be a reasonable starting point, although the exact number should be debated.

At that point several changes could occur.

Council elections

Sitting Council members who are also Core Contributors would no longer vote in Council elections.

They would retain their CC status and all other normal contributor rights.

The purpose of this restriction would simply be to establish that, once a sufficiently broad independent electorate exists, sitting Council members should no longer substantially participate in choosing the future Council.

Core Contributor admissions

Dual role members could continue participating in CC nomination discussions and voting, but they should not be capable of determining admission by themselves.

For example, if five affirmative votes remain necessary to induct a Core Contributor, at least three of those five votes could be required to come from Core Contributors who are not currently Council members.

This would prevent a Council majority that also holds CC status from independently determining who enters the electorate that will eventually select future Councils.

It would still allow their experience and judgment to remain part of the process.

Core Contributor nominations

Council members should still be able to identify and nominate excellent contributors.

However, once the maturity threshold has been reached, a Core Contributor nomination originating from a sitting Council member could require endorsement from at least one Core Contributor who is not currently serving on the Council.

For example:

A Council member nominates Alice as a Community CC.

One independent CC seconds or endorses the nomination.

The nomination then proceeds normally.

This provides an independent check without making the nomination process unnecessarily restrictive.

Stage Three: Mature governance

As the Core Contributor community becomes substantially larger, Tari could move toward stronger separation.

At this point I think it becomes reasonable to establish explicit decentralisation targets for overlap between the Council and the Core Contributor body.

One possible target would be that no more than 50 percent of Council members should simultaneously hold Core Contributor status.

Over time, the community could consider reducing that further if the number and diversity of active contributors makes doing so practical.

I would initially treat this as a governance target rather than an automatic eligibility restriction.

With a Council of only five to seven people, strict percentage limits become quite blunt. A 25 percent hard cap, for example, would generally mean only one Council member could also be a Core Contributor.

That may eventually be desirable, but I do not think we need to assume today that the future community will require that degree of separation.

6. Measure independent participation publicly

I think Tari should publish a small number of simple governance metrics.

For example:

Total number of Core Contributors.

Number of Core Contributors currently sitting on the Council.

Number of independent Core Contributors.

Percentage of the CC electorate independent of the Council.

Percentage of Council members who are also CCs.

This would allow decentralisation to be measured rather than debated purely through perception.

It would also make it easier to determine when the governance system has genuinely matured enough for stronger separation.

7. A possible guiding rule

Rather than trying to anticipate every possible governance configuration, I think there is a useful overarching principle that could guide these safeguards:

Once the governance maturity threshold has been reached, no decision to induct a Core Contributor or elect a Council member should be capable of being determined solely by people who currently hold membership in both bodies.

The detailed voting and nomination rules could then implement that principle.

This focuses on the underlying problem rather than treating dual membership itself as undesirable.

8. Why not simply prohibit overlap?

I do not think that would be appropriate, particularly during the current stage of Tari’s development.

The Charter expects Council candidates to have made sustained and verifiable contributions to Tari.

That naturally means there will be considerable overlap between people who make strong Council candidates and people who qualify as Core Contributors.

A rule preventing those people from being recognised in both capacities could therefore weaken one body simply to create artificial separation from the other.

The objective should instead be to separate governance influence, not necessarily the people doing the work.

9. Why not immediately remove voting rights from dual role members?

The seven Council members and eleven CCs example demonstrates the problem with doing this too early.

If seven dual role members immediately lost their Council election votes, four people would become responsible for selecting a Council of up to seven members.

Similarly, removing all dual role members from Core Contributor admission votes while the independent CC group remains very small could make it unnecessarily difficult to induct new contributors.

The transition therefore needs to depend upon meaningful independent participation rather than an arbitrary date or total membership figure.

10. Suggested review points

The existing eleven CC threshold can remain an important first milestone because it ends the Council’s special bootstrap voting rights over CC nominations.

Additional reviews could then be triggered by the number of independent Core Contributors.

For example:

At 11 total CCs, review the level of Council overlap and publish the first governance metrics.

At 10 independent CCs, consider activating Council election separation and independent requirements for CC admissions and nominations.

At 20 independent CCs, review whether a formal Council overlap target should apply.

At 30 independent CCs, review whether stronger separation is now practical.

These numbers are examples rather than numbers I feel strongly about.

I think establishing the principle and the mechanism is more important than deciding the exact thresholds immediately.

11. The overall objective

There are two governance risks we should try to avoid.

The first is allowing a relatively small group to repeatedly participate in nominating, admitting and electing one another until that structure becomes difficult for new voices to penetrate.

The second is imposing strict separation so early that Tari does not have enough qualified and committed people to operate the governance system effectively.

I think both concerns are legitimate.

The current proposals already contain safeguards that begin moving governance away from Council control as the Core Contributor program grows. I think the next step is to strengthen that principle by addressing the influence created when individuals hold membership in both groups.

During bootstrap, overlap should be accepted.

As independent participation grows, dual role members should progressively surrender some of the powers that allow either body to determine the composition of the other.

Eventually, the independent Core Contributor community should be large enough that the Council can be elected without sitting Council members participating in that election, and new Core Contributors cannot be admitted solely through the votes of people who also sit on the Council.

The principle I would ultimately propose is:

Do not prevent good contributors from participating in both groups. Instead, progressively separate the governance powers of the two groups once the community is large enough to support it.

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This is excellent @joseph and meets in the middle with everyones concerns … I support!!

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@joseph Your post is quite long and I’ve read it through but want to make sure I understand the concrete changes you’re actually proposing before responding to any of it. Could you confirm you’re putting forward the following changes to TIP-PROC-6?

  1. Set a target size for the CC body by which CC induction votes cannot come exclusively from council members who also hold CC status.
  2. Set a target number of CCs by which Council members no longer have a vote in selecting council members even if they are CCs.

There are a few other ‘maybes’ in there but they seem to depend on information we don’t have yet about evaluating the maturity of the project later down the line.

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Yes, broadly. The only bit I’d add is that for 1, the threshold should be based on the number of CCs who are independent of the Council, rather than the total number of CCs. Once that threshold is reached, e.g., 3 of the 5 affirmative votes required to induct a new CC could need to come from CCs who are not also sitting Council members.

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Thanks, @joseph . I’ve been pondering over these today.

On this item:

Even factoring in your caveat about a threshhold of non-council CCs, this seems quite unnecessary to me, since any CC can put forward a veto and entirely stop the induction of a new CC, and they have two full weeks of public notice to do so. The only exception would be if the council unanimously overrode the CC induction choice, a very high bar to clear. The more CCs are inducted, the more potential vetos are introduced. I’m not entirely opposed to it, but I’m not seeing much benefit.

I spent some time gaming this out with @kinkajou and we came to the conclusion that this would have the opposite effect of what you intend. If we’re especially worried about the council grabbing too much power and not ceding enough of it to the main CC body, creating a cutoff like this introduces an incentivized exploit where a council member who is a CC can stop the CC body from growing, and do so in a way the council cannot override, since only the council voting unanimously can override a CC ‘no’ vote.

Technically, a council member who is also a CC is in a position to stop such an induction. But they wouldn’t have a particular incentive to do it until we introduce that cutoff, because they wouldn’t stand to lose something by having a new CC inducted.

As we’ve already come to the conclusion in the previous thread and in this one, overlap is going to be inevitable, and to some degree we have to trust that the people who are in this position, especially at the beginning, are going to do right by us. I believe the mitigations currently in place are as good as we’re likely to get.

I’d also like to note this section of the TIP on amendments. Introducing these changes would be a very uphill battle. We first have to induct CCs to have a chance of even changing it at all, as we made it very hard to change on principle that we would not want the council rewriting the rules to claw undue power flippantly, and using the normal rules of ratification for TIPs, they would be able to do so otherwise.

Note also that the votes for council members are ranked choice. This frustrates many of the ways that voting can be gamed to try to get specific members elected, since not having enough people selecting a particular person doesn’t result in all of those votes being lost-- they just get redirected to the next consensus candidate.

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Thanks @Fox. I agree we should induct the initial group of CCs under the current bootstrap process, which is why I was trying to frame the changes around a later maturity point rather than restricting what happens now (see 5. in the initial proposal).

On point 1, I am not sure I agree that the single veto makes the additional safeguard unnecessary. A veto and a requirement for independent affirmative support solve slightly different problems.

In a relatively small community, being the one person publicly voting no when everyone else supports a nomination carries a fairly high social cost. Even with everyone acting in good faith, it can create tension and a chilling effect where someone may be reluctant to be the individual responsible for blocking a candidate. Requiring, for example, three of the five affirmative votes to come from CCs who are not also on the Council avoids placing that burden on a lone dissenter. The candidate simply needs positive support from people outside the Council as well.

On point 2, I take your point about creating an incentive around a hard cutoff. That is a good edge case and probably means the transition needs more thought.

At the same time, to me it also highlights the underlying reason I think we should aim to reduce the governance overlap as the community matures. When the same person holds governance rights in both bodies, a rule affecting one role can create incentives through the other role. The more we mix the two, the more of these interactions we potentially create.

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Hmm. This is a fair point. A cutoff issue does exist here as well, but it’s much more muted and probably wouldn’t matter in practice. Would you like to open a PR against the TIP to add this language? Otherwise, would you ping me about it once the initial inductions are finished and we can look at wording then?

That is indeed a key goal here-- the primary mechanism is by encouraging induction so that power isn’t too concentrated. It occurs to me, though, that there is an ambiguity left in the text: If a council member is both a CC and Council member, it’s not clear if their voting rights for CC induction are suspended during their council term once the 11 minimum is hit. That could result in individual council members vetoing induction unilaterally after that point, since only a unanimous vote could override them and they’re already part of that set.

That’s a more concerning issue to me than whether council members can vote on the elections of other council members.

@kinkajou what are your thoughts on that?

Honestly, it seems like we’re just needlessly nitpicking now. I agree with your initial assessment that the changes being proposed now don’t actually matter much at all in practice. But sure, submit a TIP. We’ve only spent 3mo on this and it’s not like we have anything else better to do than relitigate every decision. /s

If the goal is to reduce long term centralization of power in the hands of the council, then the best options are to either expand the council and increase proportional representation or disband the council entirely and turn those governance functions over to the Core Contributor group.

A council is never going to be truly decentralized, nor will a Core Contributor group, we’re making compromises where we see appropriate in order to get Tari off the ground.

And if the concern is making sure people with diverse backgrounds and skillsets are represented on the council, well that’s why we have the different core contributor categories! The easiest fix for that problem would be amending the council charter to require category diversity among the contributors being nominated for council seats.

I don’t see this as an issue because it only takes a majority vote of the Council to remove a member for misconduct. If a council member was just stonewalling the entire CC program then they’d get removed - which isn’t a difficult process for a Council member.

The long-term is to distribute decision making and reduce the number of things the council actually needs to make decisions for. The council is still useful as a (relatively) nimble group compared to the larger CC body who has been selected by the CCs to handle some of the most critical parts of the project regarding budget and strategic decisions, and act as ‘signers’ in a practical sense when doing things that require a corporate entity’s assent to perform in real-world legal systems. There’s likely to always be some need for it, but it’s not intended to be a permanent position for anyone.

The ‘not intended to be a permanent position’ bit is the main issue here that’s being brought up-- we want the council working primarily with the CCs and not against them. I don’t think this is an actual issue today, nor do I think it’s likely to be one in the near future. But the document already makes it clear that the goal is to have both bodies work with each other so that each can focus on different elements of the project.

For initial removal, yes, though on appeal they have to get unanimous voting from the council and 2/3rds from those who cast a vote saying they should be removed.

A simple fix, in my opinion, would be that after the initial 11 are inducted, that any CCs on the council could vote for someone but couldn’t vote against them. That would prevent a unilateral veto. However, I’m not sure how often in practice it would matter. Could you imagine a scenario where there’s a council member dead set against admitting someone, and was the only one, but was both a CC and a council member? There aren’t too many cases where it would happen, though it is conceivable.

I agree that this is mostly micro-optimization at this point, and I think everyone in this thread is aware that these aren’t things we can change immediately. But I do think there’s some value in at refining the CC program over time and we can start assembling ideas on how to do it for when if/when we decide to do an amendment run.

I don’t know if I want to spend much more energy on it right now. If @Plats wants to create a PR with some suggestions on improvements, we can review it in a month or two once we have our bearings.

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Not only can I imagine this scenario, I have seen this exact scenario play out no less than four times in other projects. It’s the reason why the very first suggestion I made was a veto power.

What happens when you try to force highly talented and/or experienced individuals with in-demand skill-sets (the types of contributors Tari needs to be competitive in this industry) to work with people they don’t like for zero or very little pay?
The answer is they just quit/leave. And the individual(s) they perceived as problematic, usually for very good reason, stay and then have less pushback on top of that.

If anything is going to kill Tari at this point, it’s going to be a wrong decision on admitting a Core Contributor/Council member followed by an inability to remove them or dampen their influence.

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Hmm. You’re right. This might be a ‘the cure is worse than the disease’ thing. Your point about voting out a council member deliberately stymieing the will of the CCs seems like it’s the better tradeoff.

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If I’m understanding correctly, it only requires a majority of the Council to remove a Council member. At which point they would only have their CC veto to stall the nomination process, and this can be overruled by a unanimous vote of the Council which would have just voted that individual out.

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Ah, got it. I thought you were referring to the Council’s ability to remove a CC, not the council’s ability to remove its own members.

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Reading through, this feels like it’s largely converged: the existing mechanisms (majority removal of a stonewalling Council member, the veto, ranked-choice elections) cover the main risk, and the rest is refinement rather than anything urgent.

I’m in favour of Fox’s suggestion, let @joseph batch the improvement ideas into a PR and revisit in a month or two once the initial inductions are done… .without forcing it now

Principle worth banking: reduce governance overlap as the community matures, without excluding good people while we’re small.

Appreciate everyone thrashing this out properly … and happy to revisit should the need arise … :turtle: